After this's all over, I hope the U.S. gov't bills Trump for the damage he's done to our reputation

[JereFuzz]

The wall sounds ... reasonable. And it is.

Wait, what?

I don’t agree with the wall but it is reasonable for people to think it would alleviate some problems. But ultimately, the system needs the labor and some negative consequences will come with it ...

There is nothing reasonable about the wall idea.
It's a supid idea thought up by stupid people. And what is worse is that most of the people against it are not against it because it's a supid idea or that it wound work but they think it is unjust and evil, making them more stupid than the people that want to build the thing. Maybe these wallists and wallenights might do better to ask things like why a wall? Why do they actually think it is needed. What is the actual cause for all these people they don't want coming here to come here? How much of the people they support have to do with the reason that theirwall is needed... And maybe the antiwallfolk might try to focus on why elwall won't work anyway vs y'all are evil and mean and inhumain...

I don't support the wall nor do I think that it will benefit the USA or achieve what supporters think it will achieve. But with the multitude of issues the country has to deal with it is reasonable for people to want one. Keep all the bad out. The US is going isolationist and it's reasonable for isolationists to want barriers. The Chinese did it during the Ming Dynasty after losing a big war with the Mongols in the 1450s. This Chinese isolationist move was a prelude to a great decline. Again, today the US is building walls/not visiting LATAM but China is building bridges (literally and figuratively) to LATAM and other regions. In 50-75 years which peoples will have a better standard of living vs today, those that build bridges or those that build walls?

[Mudfuzz]

except that they ARE racist, cruel, and evil. letting them drive us into empirical argement is to abrogate the high ground. should we also argue against white nationalists by saying that an ethnostate wouldn't be practical?

Calling them evil does not make them feel bad and will not make them stop being the way they are. And you cannot teach the willfully ignorant.

[Mudfuzz]

The wall sounds ... reasonable. And it is.

Wait, what?

I don’t agree with the wall but it is reasonable for people to think it would alleviate some problems. But ultimately, the system needs the labor and some negative consequences will come with it ...

There is nothing reasonable about the wall idea.
It's a supid idea thought up by stupid people. And what is worse is that most of the people against it are not against it because it's a supid idea or that it wound work but they think it is unjust and evil, making them more stupid than the people that want to build the thing. Maybe these wallists and wallenights might do better to ask things like why a wall? Why do they actually think it is needed. What is the actual cause for all these people they don't want coming here to come here? How much of the people they support have to do with the reason that theirwall is needed... And maybe the antiwallfolk might try to focus on why elwall won't work anyway vs y'all are evil and mean and inhumain...

I don't support the wall nor do I think that it will benefit the USA or achieve what supporters think it will achieve. But with the multitude of issues the country has to deal with it is reasonable for people to want one. Keep all the bad out. The US is going isolationist and it's reasonable for isolationists to want barriers. The Chinese did it during the Ming Dynasty after losing a big war with the Mongols in the 1450s. This Chinese isolationist move was a prelude to a great decline. Again, today the US is building walls/not visiting LATAM but China is building bridges (literally and figuratively) to LATAM and other regions. In 50-75 years which peoples will have a better standard of living vs today, those that build bridges or those that build walls?

So many holes and not enough time and you know better...

[dubkitty]

i'm not trying to make them feel bad, because they have no compassion or shame. i want to express to decent people the gravity of the stakes.

shitty sentence structure, but fuck it...it's my day off.

[Faldoe]

The thing is that the problems you're describing aren't immigration problems. They're violent crime problems, and there's no reason they should be treated any differently than violent crimes committed by American citizens. Are there problems with law enforcement and the criminal justice system? Absolutely, but that conversation has nothing to do with immigration, except in so far as the lack of sanctuary status throughout much of the country impedes the process of taking violent criminals off the streets.

Can you define for me what you would consider immigration problems? Murder is a violent crime, yes, but I don't see how you can dismiss the fact that if people with prior criminal history weren't allowed to be back in the country if they aren't citizens, then they could not commit any further crimes in the future. That makes sense, yes?

I don't follow the point of your second sentence.

[Lurker13]

I don't think arguments against the wall are, or should be, limited to this either/or scenario you guys are postulating. In a democracy, every vote matters. There may be "practical" voters who think something should be done to stem the tide of illegal immigration, but not if it's an impractical waste of money.

For example, a wall can be tunneled underneath of, and tunneling under the border has been going on for decades.

...over 150 tunnels have been discovered between the two countries since 1990...

https://www.thedailybeast.com/tunnels-f ... ico-border

Here is a good read on the practical problems of Trump's wall, including the terrain.
https://www.revealnews.org/article/the- ... all-order/

[Chankgeez]

There's a lot more money in smuggling drugs than smuggling people though.

[Lurker13]

There's a lot more money in smuggling drugs than smuggling people though.

True, but if they want through badly enough, they will probably tunnel.

[Blackened Soul]

it's time to repost this me thinks.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QneIIVmr1LQ[/youtube]

[Sonaboy]

violent crime that stems from "illegals" is such an infinitesimal problem, it's incredible to me that it's the main selling point for a multi-billion dollar project that will do little to decrease the amount of illegal immigrants, since most of them are already here, stuck in a registration glitch and not marauding across the US border.

all TumTum's administration has done, is make lawful immigration harder, which means more people will retroactively be "illegal" and thus perpetuate the problem they are trying to exploit with this stupid fucking wall.

and make no mistake - they ARE exploiting it for political gains. they don't care a fucking whit about solving problems with illegal immigration.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/30/us/p ... e=Homepage

[Psyre]

Would be interesting to see how opinions of the wall would change if the government allowed those here illegally to work on it for a year for their citizenship. Then offered those with college debt to work on its construction for a year to relinquish their student loan debt. Then allowed those wanting a fast track to citizenship the ability to work a year for legal status. It seems if the wall were to happen, the contractor labor is by far the largest cost. This would cut the cost dramatically and offer up some major benefits. How many of you with student debt would work a year for no more debt?

[dubkitty]

or to put it more plainly, "how many of you would collaborate with racism and fascism for money?"

[popvulture]

or to put it more plainly, "how many of you would collaborate with racism and fascism for money?"

Well, interestingly that's exactly what Repubs are currently doing by accepting Trump.

[Psyre]

This is obviously not the place for discussion. My apologies

[Mudfuzz]

Would be interesting to see how opinions of the wall would change if the government allowed those here illegally to work on it for a year for their citizenship. Then offered those with college debt to work on its construction for a year to relinquish their student loan debt. Then allowed those wanting a fast track to citizenship the ability to work a year for legal status. It seems if the wall were to happen, the contractor labor is by far the largest cost. This would cut the cost dramatically and offer up some major benefits. How many of you with student debt would work a year for no more debt?

Why ask these things interns of the wall?
Again. putting aside feels. the wall is a incredibly stupid concept. It will do nothing but waste time and money at best. You could apply your entire post to something like infrastructure, which is a actual valuable thing.