After this's all over, I hope the U.S. gov't bills Trump for the damage he's done to our reputation

[Faldoe]

I'm sure Steve Bannon has very reasonable conversations too

I'm not very smart at all.

lol. When you can't come up with actual critiques of what a person has said you are only left with that.

I enjoy criticism but it has to be substantive. If you disagree with something I said, If I am wrong: point out how and why.

[chromandre]

If you disagree with something I said, If I am wrong: point out how and why.

that's the thing, I don't disagree with the statement that you are "not very smart at all." We are in 100% agreement.

[chromandre]

Well, Faldoe is the only one I see on this page trying to have a reasonable conversation, so...

It really isn't reasonable though. What he keeps reiterating is this idea that someone somewhere could have a criticism of BLM and somehow this is might not be racist. It's just so contrived and ambivalent that its not even a point.

It's also not okay what he's doing just in general. For someone who self describes as "not very smart at all" , it may not even be something he is fully aware of what he's doing, but either way he is a useful idiot for more corrosive people. The point is to float opinions like this to sway people who maybe aren't so politically engaged, we really only came here to talk about fuzz pedals some of us might leave thinking for example that these are normal opinions:
viewtopic.php?f=42&t=47475&p=1364501#p1364501


There is a very relevant video essay series on youtube titled the "alt right playbook" I know it is long , not asking anyone to watch it but if you are interested they have illustrated the problem much better than I can https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P55t6eryY3g&t=11m18s

[frodog]

The "alt right playbook", yeah I'm very familiar with that kinda stuff and I can assure you it doesn't sway me. Neither does it seem like Faldoe is trying to do that. Why is it completely unthinkable that you could have any criticism of BLM and not be an outright racist? Why can't he voice any opinion differing from the hard left without being accused of that? I realize the political climate in the US is super polarized (I don't live there but it's going on all over the world) but this is not helping. Labelling people as nazis (in the making) and putting words in their mouth doesn't help anything, in fact I'd say the extreme left is just as guilty as the alt-right in the shitstorm that it causes.

I can say that in my relatively long life I've mostly been surrounded by leftists, and counted myself among them, but time and time again those have proven to be the most alienating, rigid and hypocritical people I've met, with exceptions of course. My more open-minded friends that don't identify as communists or whatever are way more interesting to talk to and fun to be around.

[chromandre]

Neither does it seem like Faldoe is trying to do that. Why is it completely unthinkable that you could have any criticism of BLM and not be an outright racist?

because hes not owning it. he isn't going to actually make or support the claim, just announce that someone else said a thing. Just introduce an idea that is very against the grain idea and take zero accountability for it. It doesn't really make sense , its just normalizing indefensible viewpoints.

[aedes]

Give examples of the GOP being openly racist? I do not doubt there are republicans that appeal to racism, i.e. Steve King, but is to be for enforcing the border racist in and of itself?

They've gone from subtle to open to subtle to open--whichever works depending on the year. For example, this was a big deal when it came out:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io9KMSSEZ0Y[/youtube]

so was this

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIyewCdXMzk[/youtube]

and more recently this

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jaz1J0s-cL4[/youtube]

[Mudfuzz]

You are all being silly, and over complicating your own arguments to make yourselves sound smart.
Politics are not complex.
Chimps use politics and they don't even have digital watches.

[coupleonapkins]

Chimps use politics and they don't even have digital watches.

[Faldoe]

Well, Faldoe is the only one I see on this page trying to have a reasonable conversation, so...

It really isn't reasonable though. What he keeps reiterating is this idea that someone somewhere could have a criticism of BLM and somehow this is might not be racist. It's just so contrived and ambivalent that its not even a point. 1

2. It's also not okay what he's doing just in general. For someone who self describes as "not very smart at all" , it may not even be something he is fully aware of what he's doing, but either way he is a useful idiot for more corrosive people. The point is to float opinions like this to sway people who maybe aren't so politically engaged, we really only came here to talk about fuzz pedals some of us might leave thinking for example that these are normal opinions:
viewtopic.php?f=42&t=47475&p=1364501#p1364501


There is a very relevant video essay series on youtube titled the "alt right playbook" I know it is long , not asking anyone to watch it but if you are interested they have illustrated the problem much better than I can

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P55t6eryY3g&t=11m18s

1. Explain how? All I see are people disagreeing without saying how or why? No you may think what I mean by people - and I referenced other black people as well - disagreeing with BLM to mean they disagree with the slogan "BLM" in that they may think Black Lives don't matter. That isn't what I'm saying. Of course their lives matter and there are fore sure are, have been, and will likely continue to be incidents with police and black people (men in particular) that are some what motivated (influenced) by race and that is a problem. I don't dispute that nor condone it. My issue is that with these social movements coming from the Left and BLM as the example here there is a perpetuation of the same things which we see from people on the Right in terms of blanket judgments about groups of people. I.e. The police as a whole, for instance.

No doubt certain whole departments need reform but to paint all cops as the same is irresponsible and is an act of prejudice: judging all by the example of few or segment of the population who have committed error. Is that not also what society and cops have done to black people? Stereotyped and then judged all by that metric?

My concern is people and society as a whole and I hope we can understand the wrongs committed to have a "more perfect union." An essential part of that is each person realizing how they can and do have their own biases and how easily they can be projected onto others.

I agree with the progressive (to an extent) views of people on the left: LQGBT rights, etc. but all that is for nothing if the advocated and activists essential, think and see without nuance and perpetuate binaries and false dichotomies.

2. I put the "not very smart at all" as a means to try and show some humility here that I'm not coming at this as if I know all and everyone is wrong. What I've been saying is if you disagree, tell me how and why? But you seized upon that one state - I'll submit - because you have no means of how and why to refute what I've said.

I think about these issues often and my own bias.' Yes, I realize I'm not without them. I'm constantly judging people, often unconsciously, but it is my goal as a person to see those and not let them dictate how I interact people. That I try, as MLK said, to judge people by the content of their character instead of the color of their skin." I'd imagine we all agree in today's world that means sexual orientation, gender, etc.

The "alt right playbook", yeah I'm very familiar with that kinda stuff and I can assure you it doesn't sway me. Neither does it seem like Faldoe is trying to do that. Why is it completely unthinkable that you could have any criticism of BLM and not be an outright racist? Why can't he voice any opinion differing from the hard left without being accused of that? I realize the political climate in the US is super polarized (I don't live there but it's going on all over the world) but this is not helping. Labelling people as nazis (in the making) and putting words in their mouth doesn't help anything, in fact I'd say the extreme left is just as guilty as the alt-right in the shitstorm that it causes.

I can say that in my relatively long life I've mostly been surrounded by leftists, and counted myself among them, but time and time again those have proven to be the most alienating, rigid and hypocritical people I've met, with exceptions of course. My more open-minded friends that don't identify as communists or whatever are way more interesting to talk to and fun to be around.

Thanks, dude.

Neither does it seem like Faldoe is trying to do that. Why is it completely unthinkable that you could have any criticism of BLM and not be an outright racist?

because hes not owning it. he isn't going to actually make or support the claim, just announce that someone else said a thing. Just introduce an idea that is very against the grain idea and take zero accountability for it. It doesn't really make sense , its just normalizing indefensible viewpoints.

What am I not "owning?"

Here is a claim:

We are all human

All humans are capable of the same achievements - we are all equal. Racists have tried to deny certain groups of people equal rights at access to successful endeavors, like education, by claiming the latter weren't equal. They are. We all are equal. This is not to say we all start from the same level playing field - enter the talk of equity versus equality.

I think there is merit, to an extent, to the discussion of equity but I think those that champion it over equality through the baby out with the bathwater as equality relates to the aforementioned point. It is true we do not all start out
with the same set of opportunities but that does not discount that we are all equal as human beings in our potential, if those obstacles at birth weren't there. This is elaborated on below.

There are also people on the Right (certain conservatives) that will use the notion of equality - there we are all equal and capable of same achievements - to ignore the point made by those talking of equity. Namely, that though we
are all capable of acivehment doesn't mean we all have an equal starting point to get there and thus there are people that will have a better shot at achieving a goal that others with the same aspirations but different starting points
do not.

If all humans are equal and equally capable of successes they are all equally capable of failures.

These include errors or failures in reasoning.

Prejudice is one of those failures.

A healthy person is one that interacts with people with as minimal as possible use of prejudice.

Healthy people make healthy communities, towns, cities, states, nations.

This is crude as I have to run to a meeting but this is my point. All I really want to get across is what people - ALL PEOPLE - need to understand/see/process their prejudices so as to meet in the public square and decide (as level headed as possible) what kind of society we want to live in.

[John]

Give examples of the GOP being openly racist?

It really all comes back to this. Anyone with access to information who is skeptical of the racism inherent in the GOP is no longer entitled to a "reasonable conversation" about it. Sorry! You're clearly not illiterate, and I know you have the internet, so if you still can't see it then you're either in such denial that you won't look at the truth or you're personally invested in covering for institutional racism.

[TheTransient]

most don't hang out on a bespoke musical toy box forum

Not being very helpful as far as the general discourse is concerned, but I just wanted to point out this gem and personally thank John for it.

"A BESPOKE MUSICAL TOY BOX FORUM"

I had a good fuckin chuckle at that

[Gone Fission]

Essential to understanding the state of fuckedness that has been on the march and winning on too many fronts. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

[Faldoe]

Give examples of the GOP being openly racist?

It really all comes back to this. Anyone with access to information who is skeptical of the racism inherent in the GOP is no longer entitled to a "reasonable conversation" about it. Sorry! You're clearly not illiterate, and I know you have the internet, so if you still can't see it then you're either in such denial that you won't look at the truth or you're personally invested in covering for institutional racism.

I think at this point, John, you can't meet me on the level of discourse and all you can do is try and attack me in any way possible - not addressing anything I've written previously. Except for below.

Regarding the above quote about the GOP. I was asking "jirodreamsofdank" about him saying the GOP has become more openly racist. I should have be clearer to ask for those examples jiro is referring too. That was on page 570.

I mentioned Steve King. He is obviously racist and yes, the GOP has said racist shit. I don't think however that every republican or conservative thinks that way.

I don't discount the existence of institutional racism - touched on it with bias and cops in a previous post.

[John]

Give examples of the GOP being openly racist?

It really all comes back to this. Anyone with access to information who is skeptical of the racism inherent in the GOP is no longer entitled to a "reasonable conversation" about it. Sorry! You're clearly not illiterate, and I know you have the internet, so if you still can't see it then you're either in such denial that you won't look at the truth or you're personally invested in covering for institutional racism.

I think at this point, John, you can't meet me on the level of discourse

Hehehehehehe

Remember when I said this?

ergo I am very smart"

You're doing this ^^^

"You can't handle how smart I am! Debate me aaargh!" Nah man, you just aren't worth it.

[Faldoe]

Yes, you did say that.

Again, you can only side step and not address things directly. I responded to your point about the GOP comment. You made the claim I’m covering for institutional racism. I don’t A. Deny IR exists and B. I think prior comments I made suggest I want a society in which there are barriers to people’s success and if I haven’t made it clear: removal of policies that discriminate on the basis of race.

DOS evoked redistributing: Yes, I think that is a problem. The act of redistricting.