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If I were to guess that no one reading this is directly effected by the manufacturing conditions of Cort and/or Cor-tek guitars....

Would I be wrong?

D.o.S. wrote:If I were to guess that no one reading this is directly effected by the manufacturing conditions of Cort and/or Cor-tek guitars....
Would I be wrong?

Maybe not affected by, but quite possibly complicit in. That's the point no?

maz91379 wrote:I still side with dubkitty on this. It's not that i automatically assume they are lying are behind some sort of conspiracy, it's just they haven't done that good of a job at arguing their cause. I'm unsure what their motivations are or could be that isn't the point. Based on the video It's just a handful of upset workers talking about how they have been wronged. You need the other side or other supporting sources to be effective. Just saying that the other side won't talk is a cop out. The claims are concerning but the documentary just isn't convincing for me.

You know, there is more information outside of the documentary. The documentary is not the be it all of explaining the struggle. Not to mention, Cort workers have already address the "other side" by counter arguing a number of points (there was that one article I posted earlier). I just don't understand how you can present the other side if the other side is not willing to talk or defend itself. The basic rhetoric of the other side (jobs needed to be moved due "lack of profit", union leaders are greedy, the legal arguments, the documentation and proof etc etc) has already been addressed.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlzXFuFOz_0[/youtube]

http://cortaction.wordpress.com

Wonder how the dead Cort guy that designed the cor-tek would feel about this?








Probably just fine.

So many in this thread.
My fav one was about how they should not complain cause they're not like, North Korea you know ?

For all of you guys that keep saying "it's just a handful of workers"... I have to question: what's the limit with you guys? Is it ok if it happens to 5 people, 10 people, 15, but not ok for 20? Is anything under 100 workers not worth worrying about? What if it was 1500, then would you get upset?

devnulljp wrote:

D.o.S. wrote:If I were to guess that no one reading this is directly effected by the manufacturing conditions of Cort and/or Cor-tek guitars....
Would I be wrong?

Maybe not affected by, but quite possibly complicit in. That's the point no?

Yeah, that is the point.

And guess what? As I was reading about this yesterday evening, the various reports about what companies buy what guitars from Cort, I found out that the Fender Lite Ash Telecaster that I own was, in fact, built at a Cort factory in Korea. This entire time I thought it was from the "Crafted in Japan" group. I pulled the guitar out last night, checked the back of the headstock, and sure enough... "Made in Korea." Which means that I played a real life part in what happened to these factory workers. I can't change the fact that it happened to them, but what I can do is be more discriminatory with my future purchases. I've been a Fender guitar player my whole life and now I have to decide if I'm going to stay that way.

I'm complicit in a whole bunch of terrible things that are far beyond my control--I pay taxes, therefore I fund the military, therefore I support the use of force in foreign policy. I also own a Korean bass. Not quite as bad, from my point of view.

Where's the line?

You can't not pay taxes. You can not buy Cort.

The line is for you to decide.

Bellyheart wrote:The line is for you to decide.

i think this is the most REAL statement in this thread

we've got some info, we can dig deeper and find some more, we can argue about it and try to force our opinion to the others, but in the end the thing that really makes the difference is whether we buy the guitar or not. And it's up to each one of us whether we are able and willing to ignore that info we got or not

My issue isn't that people aren't boycotting Cort (or *insert X corporation*). Everyone is complicit in something, its very hard to divorce yourself from it. The military/tax example is a good one.

My issue is people undermining or outright denying that there is a problem here, or that the conditions the workers are being put through are justified.

my issue is that supporters of one side insist that i accept extremely biased accounts from that side which are unsupported by any verifiable documentary evidence as absolute fact. i also refuse to accept an implied moral judgement that if i buy, e.g, a Schecter guitar i am in some way "complicit in" "the conditions the workers are being put through." in the first place, the plants have been closed. whatever conditions the workers were "being put through" in the plants no longer exist, and therefore NO consumer can be "complicit" in conditions that NO LONGER EXIST. second, i categorically reject the notion that "the personal is political." i decline to vet my every action, purchase, thought, and CO2 exhalation for political correctness. sorry...i realize that you issue-oriented types are accustomed to waving some emotion-laden stuff around, making people go "aww," and then using that understandable human reaction for your purposes, but you're going to need actual facts, logic, and argument for me, not just cheap emotional manipulation and propaganda tricks.

This is dumb. You're right, anyone else is right, no one moves...the world continues set in our ways. The end.

The personal accounts of the people that worked in these factories IS proof, and for whatever reason some just arent willing to trust their word. Again I have to ask a very simple question: what do they gain by misrepresenting themselves? What would motivate them to lie? Why hold rallies and protests on an international scale based on a lie? These are not rich politicans. They are real people that just want their jobs back.

dubkitty wrote:my issue is that supporters of one side insist that i accept extremely biased accounts from that side which are unsupported by any verifiable documentary evidence as absolute fact. i also refuse to accept an implied moral judgement that if i buy, e.g, a Schecter guitar i am in some way "complicit in" "the conditions the workers are being put through." in the first place, the plants have been closed. whatever conditions the workers were "being put through" in the plants no longer exist, and therefore NO consumer can be "complicit" in conditions that NO LONGER EXIST. second, i categorically reject the notion that "the personal is political." i decline to vet my every action, purchase, thought, and CO2 exhalation for political correctness. sorry...i realize that you issue-oriented types are accustomed to waving some emotion-laden stuff around, making people go "aww," and then using that understandable human reaction for your purposes, but you're going to need actual facts, logic, and argument for me, not just cheap emotional manipulation and propaganda tricks.

Documentary evidence has been provided (if you look at the video earlier) including medial documents, and legal court documents. Cort workers have already said they have all the material. This has gone to court! These are not available for the public viewing but they exist. Actual facts and logic has been used, but some have chosen to cover their eyes and ears. I'm sorry that you feel that asking for support/solidarity for sincere issue is propaganda. I forgot that the union-bashing and pro-globalization rhetoric has become the dominant ideology, and therefore not considered as propaganda anymore.

Clearly this boils down to an ideological difference. Even if documents were available for everyone, I sincerely doubt that this would effect your position or opinion on the matter. I'm not interesting in forcing you to change your mind, but I think its fair to get upset when there is a legitimate campaign being undermine based on the argument of "lack of evidence" (which has already been challenged). Plants have been closed and moved to other places, you don't think Cort and their third party factories have continued the process? It's pretty silly and naive to assume so.

If you think the personal (i.e. paying rent, taxes, consumer habits, the coffee you drink, the clothes you buy etc) are separate from the political, then you wouldn't care either way so this conversation is a bit pointless.

On a side note, I need to stop posting or else I'll be this guy: