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... the North Korean government is closing in on its 70th anniversary, pretty sure we're several generations past the "legitimizing" stage.

jirodreamsofdank wrote:... the North Korean government is closing in on its 70th anniversary, pretty sure we're several generations past the "legitimizing" stage.

oh I thought we were talking about trump

I mean, I never saw Obama do this.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AERv1yvCgM[/youtube]

Yeah, someone's in way over his head.

jirodreamsofdank wrote:... the North Korean government is closing in on its 70th anniversary, pretty sure we're several generations past the "legitimizing" stage.

Well, even before we get to the fact that the only thing that actually came out of the meeting was a carefully worded commitment --- that doesn't actually commit to anything -- the North Korean state now have enough imagery for their propaganda that they can live on for decades, at least.

I'm not particularly sure what's particularly cool about giving a tyrannical government the opportunity to boast about being worthy of sitting at the same table with the US President as an equal nation, since it's mostly just making it easier for horrible people to stay in power and keep an entire country subdued.


But, again, I'm sure this is not as bad as MSNBC (what I mean by this is that it's totally different situation than the post 9/11 "these colors don't run" nonsense).

D.o.S. wrote:Well, even before we get to the fact that the only thing that actually came out of the meeting was a carefully worded commitment --- that doesn't actually commit to anything -- the North Korean state now have enough imagery for their propaganda that they can live on for decades, at least.

LOL yes, the client state of China that's been in place since Harry Truman was President was just about to implode if not for the propaganda of a one-day summit.

Who cares if it wasn't some stunning deal - North Korea would be stupid to agree to nuclear disarmament, they're never going to actually do it. That's their one bargaining chip in world politics and short of invading them and making Iraq's body count look like Panama, they're going to keep it. Anything we do that makes that invasion less likely is a good thing.

I'm not particularly sure what's particularly cool about giving a tyrannical government the opportunity to boast about being worthy of sitting at the same table with the US President as an equal nation, since it's mostly just making it easier for horrible people to stay in power and keep an entire country subdued.

"Being worthy of"? Oh fuck off. The nation built on genocide and slavery, currently building kiddie concentration camps, that elected Trump and re-elected Dubya doesn't get to invoke a moral high ground.

But, again, I'm sure this is not as bad as MSNBC.

MSNBC/liberals and the Democratic Party are supposed to be our bulwark against warmongering Republicans - the GOP is inherently evil, we can't expect it to act against its nature. When the Dems/libs pundits get too scared of 'looking weak' or simply become hawks themselves, yes, they're a problem on par than Trump and the Republicans. That's how we get our follies in Iraq and Afghanistan - only the next options are NK and Iran and it's all the more important to not let that happen.

What I mean by being worthy of is that's the value of a meeting with the US President has, both for the purpose of international and domestic politics w.r.t. North Korea.

I'll be more explicit: You'd have to be deluded or naive if you think the North Korean state propaganda machine isn't going to take this and turn it into propaganda about how the States are so afraid of North Korea's nukes that they're willing to meet with Kim, stop military exercises, and withdraw their nukes. So, effectively, we've made it easier for them to brainwash their general public.

Is this worth it? I don't think so, especially since, according to Trump, we were granting this sit down because the US wanted "complete, irreversible, and verifiable denuclearization of North Korea." I'm not sure if you've read the declaration, but I challenge you to find the words "irreversible", "verifiable," and "North" in there. Like you said, it's never going to happen. So why fucking sit down with them?

Sweet. Great Job. A+ deal.

D.o.S. wrote:What I mean by being worthy of is that's the value of a meeting with the US President has, both for the purpose of international and domestic politics w.r.t. North Korea.

I'll be more explicit: You'd have to be deluded or naive if you think the North Korean state propaganda machine isn't going to take this and turn it into propaganda about how the States are so afraid of North Korea's nukes that they're willing to meet with Kim, stop military exercises, and withdraw their nukes. So, effectively, we've made it easier for them to brainwash their general public.

Again: the North Korean state is 70 years old and the most important client state of a superpower. You're hand-wringing about nothing - this is not some upstart junta that needs outside recognition to secure control.

Is this worth it? I don't think so, especially since, according to Trump, we were granting this sit down because the US wanted "complete, irreversible, and verifiable denuclearization of North Korea." I'm not sure if you've read the declaration, but I challenge you to find the words "irreversible", "verifiable," and "North" in there. Like you said, it's never going to happen. So why fucking sit down with them?

Because they exist and they're not going anywhere. Normalization of relations beats the opposite. Ending war games - and the entire US military presence in South Korea - is something that should have happened without the summit anyway, so why am I supposed to be mad about that?

The downsides, as you've outlined them, is that North Korea has received a propaganda coup. So what?

Get nukes, get money - Kim Jong-Un

On the wall of all future dictators

jirodreamsofdank wrote: Again: the North Korean state is 70 years old and the most important client state of a superpower. You're hand-wringing about nothing - this is not some upstart junta that needs outside recognition to secure control.

Yes, they've used the external threat rhetoric to keep their society in check for years. This isn't about whether or not there is representative political opposition in the country.

That said, the idea that you don't have to worry about internal resistance just because you have the population on lockdown is nothing short of hilarious.

And part of the reason why dissent is close to unheard of is because the population is on a steady diet of state-curated information about the outside world. Not only did you get no concession on this -- but you also gave the NK state enough imagery to keep feeding their people nonsense for years.

Because they exist and they're not going anywhere. Normalization of relations beats the opposite. Ending war games - and the entire US military presence in South Korea - is something that should have happened without the summit anyway, so why am I supposed to be mad about that?

The downsides, as you've outlined them, is that North Korea has received a propaganda coup. So what?

The problem is that it's all about appearances. It's about how this summit appears to the North Korean public. It's also about how it appears to US allies (Korea, by the way, was totally not informed that The States were planning to pull the plug on the joint military exercises). In broad terms, it's about the United States being eager to suck up to all sorts of garden variety tyrants and throw their allies under the bus.

The US is flushing decades' worth of goodwill down the toilet right now. Do you think the other sides to the Iran nuclear deal are looking at this and saying, "What a perfect first step, was totally worth bending over backwards to Kim for this. It's not like they have made vague promises and failed to deliver before."

I'm not sure what is so wild about thinking this is a bad thing.

A judge just ordered Paul Manafort to swap his nice $5,000 suit for a prison uniform.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/15/us/p ... -jail.html

My take on Trump's meeting with KJU is that it was nothing but a photo op for the two of them. But when I went to the store today, two old people who looked like they didn't have two synapses to connect between the two of them were yadda-yaddaing about how great Trump is and how he deserves a Nobel ducking Peace Prize.

Lurker13 wrote:But when I went to the store today, two old people who looked like they didn't have two synapses to connect between the two of them were yadda-yaddaing about how great Trump is and how he deserves a Nobel ducking Peace Prize.

I mean...

he deserves it more than a certain previous president did.

jrfox92 wrote:

Lurker13 wrote:But when I went to the store today, two old people who looked like they didn't have two synapses to connect between the two of them were yadda-yaddaing about how great Trump is and how he deserves a Nobel ducking Peace Prize.

I mean...

he deserves it more than a certain previous president did.

Which president?

Like all of 'em?

Sure.

We all know that all the previous presidents were given Nobel Peace Prizes in their first year in office.

jrfox92 wrote:

Lurker13 wrote:But when I went to the store today, two old people who looked like they didn't have two synapses to connect between the two of them were yadda-yaddaing about how great Trump is and how he deserves a Nobel ducking Peace Prize.

I mean...

he deserves it more than a certain previous president did.

No he doesn't, but neither did Obama. Again, all Trump did was meet with a despot to have a photo op that produced a vacuous "document". And don't forget the North Koreans are notorious for lying about denuclearization.