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So a land lord should take a loss for owning a property? I'm confused.

dubkitty wrote:One reason people despise landlords is the quaint notion that it's the tenant's job to buy the building for the landlord--i.e. your rent collected should cover the payments on the property--who then justifies rent-gouging as "the cost of doing business." where i sit that looks like ripping people off so the landlord gets property essentially for free.

So, here's how I do it and feel about it.

I buy a home, I'm not making anyone rent. I'm just running a business that rents out housing. I got into because 70% of people in the country rent. So, I logically though, that seems like it may be a good source of income. I was naive to most of the stigmas surrounding landlords because, well, I haven't rented in 20 years. So, I start renting and all I hear is bad stories about landlords from prospective tenants. It gets to the point where even I hate landlords. I'm not kidding either. There are a lot of them that are terrible human beings and they only care about their bottom line.

I lost 3700 dollars in revenue this month alone. It doesn't solve the issue you have, but it still stinks for me.


I do own the house. I do and I could reverse sell it to someone as well (which I've offered), but I have to make money or I can't provide for my family and have some comfort in life. I've only had a couple of people ever get truly upset with me as a "landlord" and it's usually because of simple misunderstandings.


Here's the real thing though that keeps getting overlooked no matter what. As a property owner, which I know, I could have invested in anything else and I tried, I did. I pissed 40k down the drain that I'm still trying to get back when I went into business with someone who's sole purpose was to use me for money. Anyway, I thought this was the way. I have no intentions on being neglectful or harmful, I'm not doing anything wrong. I can't change that thought process for some though, and you know what, I guess I'm kind of done trying to.

I use the liberties and rights allotted to me in this country and what I do harms no one. You want to be mad at someone. Get made at the people who keep raising my taxes and insurance every year, which forces me to up my rents. Laws of diminishing returns. I cannot live for free either.

Here's the other thing. I'm NOT getting anything for free. Working with people is exhausting. I'd say I earn my money.

So a land lord should take a loss for owning a property? I'm confused.

i didn't say or imply that. the traditional plan was to make the tenants pay the owners' mortgage on a multi-unit apartment building. i always thought the beneficiary of the situation should have to pay some of that cost themselves since they benefit most from the asset.

dubkitty wrote:

So a land lord should take a loss for owning a property? I'm confused.

i didn't say or imply that. the traditional plan was to make the tenants pay the owners' mortgage on a multi-unit apartment building. i always thought the beneficiary of the situation should have to pay some of that cost themselves since they benefit most from the asset.

That's exactly what this implies, though, unless I'm missing something.

If a property owner is paying anything for their own property costs (while a property is still mortgaged), they are losing money. If they are paying for a portion of the mortgage, they are losing money. If they are paying a portion of the utilities their tenants use, they are losing money. If they are paying for a portion of the repair costs, they are losing money. Even if they figure out how much all this would cost in advance and split it evenly between the tenants so that they make $0 from renting the property, they are still losing money in the form of unpaid work.

There is no "benefit" if they aren't making a profit.

Unless I'm missing what you are saying, which is entirely possible.

dubkitty wrote:

So a land lord should take a loss for owning a property? I'm confused.

i didn't say or imply that. the traditional plan was to make the tenants pay the owners' mortgage on a multi-unit apartment building. i always thought the beneficiary of the situation should have to pay some of that cost themselves since they benefit most from the asset.

What about the 20-30% cash I put down on each property? You know, 20-40, 50 and up thousand dollars right out the gate that I spend buying the home.

no offense intended, but i think you're conflating your situation with the kind of apartment-building-landlording i described above in a way that i did not intend. the fact that you're doing big down payments is laudable. if more landlords were like you, we wouldn't resent them so. unfortunately, that's not how the big city landlord game is run in the preponderance of cases. i firmly doubt that someone buying a 6-flat in Chicago or DC is putting 40% down, and i'm damned well certain that isn't the case in New York or San Francisco.

There is no "benefit" if they aren't making a profit.

Unless I'm missing what you are saying, which is entirely possible.

once the building is paid for (by the tenants) the owner, well, owns the building which presumably has appreciated during the mortgage period. thus, it most certainly is an "asset" even if the owner isn't trying to wring every single cent he/she can from the property during the mortgage period.

dubkitty wrote:no offense intended, but i think you're conflating your situation with the kind of apartment-building-landlording i described above in a way that i did not intend. the fact that you're doing big down payments is laudable. if more landlords were like you, we wouldn't resent them so. unfortunately, that's not how the big city landlord game is run in the preponderance of cases. i firmly doubt that someone buying a 6-flat in Chicago or DC is putting 40% down, and i'm damned well certain that isn't the case in New York or San Francisco.

I agree with you here.


I want to expand on this a bit because, why not I guess.


So, I personally have had run ins with landlords like you all hate. Like I hate too. I owned a duplex next to a slumlord (which I didn't know at the time) and also apparently bought two from one as well. When I bought the property, I bought it almost at market value (which sucks) and I put 25% down on that one I believe. Anyway, I knew there were a few roaches, and I didn't realize that was as big of deal because I was ignorant at that point still to a lot of things. So I buy this place and I start evaluating it (this is after I tried to negotiate down so that I could pay for fixes and such). I thought I was good to go, until I started dealing with the roached. When talking with the tenants I discovered that not only had they had roaches for awhile but it had been over a year. A YEAR! In a duplex. WTF. I was lied to by the seller too. They had a deal with a local pest control company, who I called and asked them how on Gods green earth they couldn't take care of a roach infestation in an fucking year. Of course it was the tenants faults. In this case, the tenants were at fault mostly due to lack of education. They literally did not know what was causing it even though I knew. So, I educated them and actually helped them clean it up. It's cardboard (from moving), exposed dog food, human food being out...etc. There's a huge list of shit that you have to do after those bastards get in your home. So, they started following that and I started spraying. I bought them dog cages so their dogs would be safe during it, and actually I bought rubbermaid containers I think as well for the dog food. Only sharing details so you get an idea of the difference between what a shitty landlord is and what I perceive as an ok one (myself), which I don't know actually if I am. I just hope I am and try to be. Anyway, after six months of weekly, then monthly spraying of a super fucking toxic chemical I got rid of those fucking bastard roaches. Six fucking months. My only other options was to have them leave and super heat the home to kill them, which would have meant both families displaced. All because the last guy apparently would do nothing.

In the year I owned that property it was clear to me I couldn't afford to fix it to the level it needed and for me to be comfortable with people living there. I felt like I did not have the money to bring it up to the level it needed for someone to live there, despite trying for a year. So, I sold it and lost probably close to 20k. On paper it was 13 but that doesn't take into count a LOT of things. Anyway, the new owners renovated it. The old tenants were moving anyway (they were tired of the situation but they told me they appreciated me working to correct it). They had lived there 3 years prior to me taking it over.

I own a second property from the same person, who I found out later made a 100k profit off of me on that place btw, and I've been working off and on fixing it for God, what is this, 4 years? 5? There's decades of deferred maintenance and neglect. I've had one unit down now for 5 months trying to fix it up.

In my head, this is what separates me but I could be wrong still. On average I will spend 10k at least fixing a property prior to anyone moving in. People tell me me I'm stupid and overspend too, but here's the thing. I make sure all the electric is good (replace all the outlets, plugs, the panel if I have to, light fixtures...etc), I fix all the plumbing (or as much as is apparent when I'm working, sometimes things unearth later), I paint, I re-floor, replace windows when needed. You know, spruce the place up so that it's semi justifiable to rent it for the rents I need.

I did that to a place and I may already shared this, but I had the landlord text door call me when I was renting because my home was going for 1400 a month (which is a lot but I paid $145k for it and that's within the 1% rule, plus I spent an addition 10k on it). For the area I'm in, it's a good price but it was at the upper end. I told him simply, I spend the money required to make it worth what I'm asking. HIs house looked like someone had dropped a fucking bomb on it. I'm not kidding. Horrible. Tree limbs on top of the house, siding coming off, windows that had obviously failed...what does he expect?


So, I've met both. People like myself who actually thought they could maybe help some people, and people that only care about money. I'm ashamed to know some of the people like that. I am. It makes me sick to my stomach and I constantly am arguing with them over ethics. I never in my life thought I'd be in a profession full of so many calloused and selfish individuals and it makes me sick.

Every notice I have to post, every hard situation that someone has, I feel the pain and I take it on most times. I'm not cut out for this shit and I know it. That's why I think I'm going to become a teacher but it's a couple year plan. Or maybe even 5, I'm not sure yet.


Anyway, people equal shit.

you're a good egg, as Mom used to say.

Jwar wrote:In my head, this is what separates me but I could be wrong still. On average I will spend 10k at least fixing a property prior to anyone moving in. People tell me me I'm stupid and overspend too, but here's the thing. I make sure all the electric is good (replace all the outlets, plugs, the panel if I have to, light fixtures...etc), I fix all the plumbing (or as much as is apparent when I'm working, sometimes things unearth later), I paint, I re-floor, replace windows when needed. You know, spruce the place up so that it's semi justifiable to rent it for the rents I need.

You're a good dude! Over the last few years before I bought my own place I lived with a variety of landlords, one I rented from for a year was like you, really helpful, well maintained property. Had no problem paying that guy rent. Then in one place that was sort of OK but slightly badly maintained, then they sold the property and kicked us out. Fair enough they gave the legal required notice within the contract so they didn't do anything wrong per se, but it still sucked as a tenant.

Then I lived in a total shithole, because of the aforementioned situation we didn't have time to look for anything better! We knew it was a shithole but it was that or be homeless. This landlord was USELESS. Did. Not. Care. about maintaining the property at all, we left it significantly cleaner and in better shape than when we moved in. Then somewhere which was mostly nice but clearly hadn't been decorated or maintained in a decade, and they wouldn't fix a leak through the roof for several months. I had to move my bed and put out a bucket to catch drips every time it rained!

Now I own my place and I am continually thankful I'm lucky enough to be able to afford not to have to deal with landlords anymore (technically the building is landlord owned but it's a big company who are responsive and the place is in great shape, plus everything internal is mine, so the interaction is minimal).

Sorry just had to rant. It's not that I hate the business of landlords existing, in the abstract, but here (and it sounds like in the US too) there is just no way of preventing people being awful landlords.

Jwar wrote: Every notice I have to post, every hard situation that someone has, I feel the pain and I take it on most times. I'm not cut out for this shit and I know it. That's why I think I'm going to become a teacher but it's a couple year plan. Or maybe even 5, I'm not sure yet.

Glad you got a plan!

Landlords drive up costs for everyone else - people who want to own a home are competing with people packing more and more properties into their portfolio, buying out the 'affordable' neighborhoods that would be starter home stock. By and large, they're also bad for the neighborhoods - they do a minimum of upkeep, the tenants have no reason to give a fuck in general because they're only going to be there for a year or two. You can drive around quickly develop an idea which streets are mostly rental stock.

Most aren't doing it as a sole source of income either - it's "passive" income, they're farming out the real work to a property manager. In which case, the math of 'should they take a loss' changes quite a bit - because then it is about the asset as much as or more than the actual month to month rental.

Like cops, we've all known good landlords and landlords who didn't set out to exploit, but the institution itself shouldn't exist (for the benefit of man).

jirodreamsofdank wrote:Landlords drive up costs for everyone else - people who want to own a home are competing with people packing more and more properties into their portfolio, buying out the 'affordable' neighborhoods that would be starter home stock. By and large, they're also bad for the neighborhoods - they do a minimum of upkeep, the tenants have no reason to give a fuck in general because they're only going to be there for a year or two. You can drive around quickly develop an idea which streets are mostly rental stock.

Most aren't doing it as a sole source of income either - it's "passive" income, they're farming out the real work to a property manager. In which case, the math of 'should they take a loss' changes quite a bit - because then it is about the asset as much as or more than the actual month to month rental.

Like cops, we've all known good landlords and landlords who didn't set out to exploit, but the institution itself shouldn't exist (for the benefit of man).

I agree partially with you here and it's not just because of housing being difficult to buy but it's who is buying it. A lot of people actually prefer to rent. It's not uncommon. In fact, I've had people tell me they have no intentions of buying a home, while others do.

In our market, if you are looking for a house, yes it is extremely hard to buy. It's not local landlords though, it is hedge fund babies and international buyers. They buy a crap ton of shit here and they actually are the biggest local slum lords. At least in the KCMO area. The other thing is, I personally will not do bidding wars or bid against anyone for a home. So, I'm actually not driving costs up. The county is doing that by allowing these groups to buy all of the real estate. I watch KCMO change in front of my eyes in like 5 years because they let all these rich ass developers roll in. No one can afford to live in the areas down there they previously had been able to. They put a "rent controlled" apartment in an old Hostess factory down on 30th and Troost in KCMO with a permanent cap at 1400 a month. Now, I don't know how many of you out there are familiar with the area, but that's insane. Down there, rents are 500-800 (I've heard a tiny higher before but not by much). THIS is the fucked up shit. I'll explain why too if need be but you can look into the history of Troost if you're truly interested. It's fucked up.

What's interesting about the whole premise of owning property and renting is you think it's a fair, equitable transaction, but I guess it's not in some people's eyes, and I get that. I still believe in free commerce and capitalism. I will never waiver from have some faith in the system, if I don't, then I don't see a point in doing much of anything because how can I succeed otherwise? I'm asking a legit question because I've tried just about every field of employment I've made my self qualified, including a police office. Yes, I applied to ohhh 10 departments when I was in my early 20's. I was told I wouldn't find a job because of my tattoos and after trying that many times, I gave up. I even applied at the Sheriff's office and was going to apply to be a jailer.


I agree that people need housing for sure and that it needs to be more accessible. I just don't know what else I can do with my life to ensure I won't have to work until the day I die (which I probably will regardless of anything). Starter homes do not exist anymore and they haven't for quite some time. I know what you're saying too. I paid 80k for my first home in 2003. That seemed reasonable and it was 80 years old. Fast forward to today and well, that house isn't for sale but they are tearing down all the old housing and putting in duplexes. Duplexes that cost 200k a side. You heard that right. 200k plus for a single side duplex. The world has officially lost its mind. Who the hell can afford that? Not the older people who are being swindled out of their properties and land.


So, in my mind, it's more about greed than blaming a single class of people or type of investment.

TFW the same exact people that a couple weeks ago were threatening to go out and shoot cops and underpaid cashiers because Wal-Mart wants them to wear a mask so they don't make a global pandemic even worse are now calling protesters thugs and explaining away cops that are shooting people with rubber bullets and instigating riots across the country.

I was really excited thinking about the future Half-Life 3 since Half-Life: Alyx came out in VR, but holy fuck, Valve's made this shit too real, man.

My brother actually started talking to me about it and he’s on of those morons your describe. Unfortunately. He never said shoot anyone but he use the words civil disobedience. Then I explained to him how that is exactly what is occurring right now. This isn’t about a single event. It’s about hundreds of years of atrocities repeatedly reoccurring. Fucked up world we live in here.