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Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:47 pm
by MEC
MiddleEarthCrisis wrote:No one has to prove to anyone why they feel, how they feel, about anything.
No one is telling anyone what to do.
Believe what you want.
Feel how you want.
Take what you want.
Give what you want.
Buy what you want.
Care about what you want.
Live how you want.
Die how you want.
Cry and complain about being unemployed if you want.
Be lazy and don't work if you want.
Get a job at an Asian factory if you want.
It's your life, it's up to you what is worth your time and consideration.
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:48 pm
by dubkitty
OK, let's do this a THIRD time:
until you've got some actual substantiation for the claims being made from a reasonably impartial source--i'd settle for an internationally recognized news service, or even a major newspaper from SK with an English-language website--you've got nothing. i don't have to supply alternative explanations for lame anecdotal propaganda; i'm not the person asking people to boycott products. you're the person who has the responsibility to produce actual, reliable, checkable evidence of your claims--not just sad unconfirmed stories about what supposedly happened to so-and-so at the factory--or you're just spouting random jive.
can none of you guys read the English language?
put up or shut up.
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:51 pm
by ohsojayadeva
Dubkitty, why don't you produce some documets that prove the workers are lying about the plants being viable with no reason to close other than to avoid a human rights issue. Its telling that you are ready and willing to take Cort at their word but call what the workers are doing propaganda.
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:52 pm
by dubkitty
i don't have to supply alternative explanations for lame anecdotal propaganda; i'm not the person asking people to boycott products. you're the person who has the responsibility to produce actual, reliable, checkable evidence of your claims--not just sad unconfirmed stories about what supposedly happened to so-and-so at the factory--or you're just spouting random jive.
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:52 pm
by tashiattack
dubkitty wrote:OK, let's do this a THIRD time:
until you've got some actual substantiation for the claims being made from a reasonably impartial source--i'd settle for an internationally recognized news service, or even a major newspaper from SK with an English-language website--you've got nothing. i don't have to supply alternative explanations for lame anecdotal propaganda; i'm not the person asking people to boycott products. you're the person who has the responsibility to produce actual, reliable, checkable evidence of your claims--not just sad unconfirmed stories about what supposedly happened to so-and-so at the factory--or you're just spouting random jive.
can none of you guys read the English language?
put up or shut up.
"The National Labor Relations Commission ruled that Cor-tek’s disciplinary dismissal of the union officers was illegal, and that the mass redundancy dismissal of all the Cort workers also did not fulfill legal prerequisites and found those dismissals unfair and illegal as well (Oct. 2007, Mar. 2008). The High Courts also found that both Cort and Cor-tek mass dismissals were illegal, finding that Cort’s claim of financial hardship false since the company had posted profits amounting to 78 billion for a decade straight until 2006, and since managerial and office staff salaries even increased after the mass firing (Aug. 2009, Nov. 2009). Cor-tek was also found to have violated the Equal Opportunity Act with its discriminatory treatment of its women workers (July 2008), while Cort’s dismissal of five workers who were industrial injury victims while on the job was ruled by the courts in favor of the workers as well (February 2008)."
So basically, if its not on bbc, cnn, or AP, then it's not real news eh?
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:54 pm
by dubkitty
link, please. i'm betting that's a quote from the press release.
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:57 pm
by dubkitty
yeah, that's the same press release from the boycott organization ohsojayadeva quoted back on page 2. you aren't even clever, you know that?
"i'd settle for an internationally recognized news service, or even a major newspaper from SK with an English-language website."
you've got nothing.
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:58 pm
by ohsojayadeva
Dubkitty: its equally telling that you keep demanding links and providing none. If you really do think there is nothing substantial going on, please feel free to unsubscribe to this thread. I have already linked to an english language news source. Now you're saying its not good enough because its connected to the movement. Prove me wrong. Show your own links.
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:59 pm
by dubkitty
it's up to you to prove your case.
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:00 pm
by tashiattack
So basically, what you are saying is that Cort workers have lied about a labour committees process, basically a quasi-legal procedure, to the entire media? Are you seriously suggesting this? Wow. I stand by my earlier position. You have already made your mind, and whether there is physical documentation available for the public or not, it won't change a damn thing for you.
I have a Korean source and I'll see if I can get her to find me the actual committee papers, although I'm not sure what their laws regarding access to information is (aka: the reason why its not public). Could also be financial, as it costs around 1500-3000$ + a wait of up to a year for Canadians (I've had to do it twice). You might need a translator though
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:07 pm
by ohsojayadeva
If you're not willing to hold yourself to the same standard you intend to impose on others, this conversation is over.
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:08 pm
by dubkitty
oh, so it's a "Committee"...it's not a judicial process. a "quasi-legal procedure." mmm-hmm.
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:10 pm
by tashiattack
dubkitty wrote:oh, so it's a "Committee"...it's not a judicial process. a "quasi-legal procedure." mmm-hmm.
Do you know how a labour board works? You know how silly you sound. Labour boards exist to relief stress on the larger legal system. It's designed to address specific oriented matters, thats why you have medical boards too. Quasi-Legal procedures still count as valid and acceptable, although a bit weaker (i.e soft law) in Liberal-Democracies. If the dispute is not solved there, the findings can be challenged at higher courts, but in most cases its avoided because it won't necessarily work in the losing sides favor. If the board finds that you violated X or Y law, chances are you did and going to court will just further entrench the findings.
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:11 pm
by dubkitty
i take it that you mean by "this conversation is over" that you can produce no evidence whatsoever other than movement propaganda. duly noted.
Re: The Ugly Truth behind Cort/Cor-tek Guitars
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:14 pm
by tashiattack
dubkitty wrote:i take it that you mean by "this conversation is over" that you can produce no evidence whatsoever other than movement propaganda. duly noted.
Haha yah right. Even if I found you the labour board documentation (which exists, and occurred, but there is no public access to it. Whether or not I can do this if we were Korean is a different matter), you'd argue that its fake or not valid. The only person playing ideological tricks here is you.
Not to mention there are lots of labour problems in South Korea to begin with, and has consistently been seen in major polls as low-ranking when it comes to adequately dealing with their workers.
http://digital.law.washington.edu/dspac ... sequence=1http://www.rjkoehler.com/2009/05/21/kor ... relations/http://www.economist.com/node/16097305 (this is a union-bash article, but hey, it shows how strong the labour movement is)