I should get a Moog, right? Right?

[PanicProne]

DISCLAIMER: This might just be the GAS talking!

DISCLAIMER 2: Isn't it always, though?

Pretty sure I've posted about this before, although it's probably a few years ago now. I feel I should get into synths. I've been into pedals for ages now but really struggle with synths for some reason. Partly because they're intimidating. I don't like theory, I don't like maths and I'm a VERY slow learner and on top of that don't really "enjoy the learning process" of techy stuff (which kinda means I'm super impatient). Also, they're so much bigger than pedals! :P I'm not the person to really "understand" what I do with gear, I just enjoy it and eventually "bond" with stuff and use it in ways I like, without really being able to describe or explain it to others. I think I like pedals cause they're very hands on (I've tried but never enjoy menus or hidden functions etc, and I get really frustrated with software).

I looked at the Arturia Minibrute ages ago when it came out, cause it was small in size and every thing seemed nicely labeled. "Maybe this is the thing I should get to learn synths, or at least not feel lost. I never ended up getting one though. Whenever I played it it didn't feel like I wanted and it never really sounded good or perhaps good enough, to me. The Moog Grandmother however, really seems to sound nice, like reaaally nice, and as far as I can tell, is super obvious with what it does (I think?). It's not super big either and it'd be something I could fiddle around with at home when all my band mates keep cancelling rehearsals and jams and I don't want to guitar/bass/pedal. It's pretty damn pricey though. I deffo have the money (and at the moment, the time too!), so what is or should be stopping me? Would this be a good start to FINALLY get into and start (enjoy) learning synths?

Ask me questions, hold me back, push me over or throw me off the edge!

[echorec]

Do you have sounds or styles in mind? How do you want to use it---slow full chords, simple bass lines, mono melodies?

If you just want to get synth sounds, you can always run an inexpensive digital keyboard/piano into a Particle or two. That is a better route for most people than dropping a grand or two on their first synth. A Casio into a gritty filter pedal will sound better than an expensive synth that's been poorly programmed.

I own a Moog Sub 37, OB6, and a lot of soft synths, so I could definitely give you feedback on what different models excel at.

If you want small & portable, the Lemondrop & Fireball from 1010 look easy to use. You'd just need a tiny MIDI keyboard.

[Paul_C]

You can get lots of different synths on an iPad, including a number of Moog ones, for less than the price of a Grandmother.

[Zork]

A great sounding synth with a nice layout, big knobs and a beautiful design is just a very, very cool thing and the Grandmother even has a fucking spring reverb built in! If you got the money, I'd say go for it. (A soft synth can get you cool sounds, but it's lacking the physical and emotional sensation and they also tend to be very deep a.k.a. complicated.)

[friendship]

The question of what kind of sounds you want to make is an important one, especially if you're not interested in learning the nitty gritty of how synths work. If you like old school 70s sounds and know for sure that you want hardware, the Grandmother or Minitaur are very cool. If you want something more complex and/or polyphonic, I'd recommend a digital synth that features a a big preset bank. When I started using synths, it was mostly plugins like that old Native Instruments Pro-5 which had a good sound and a lot of presets. I would pull up a preset that sounded close to what I was imagining, and then turn random "knobs" to try to get closer to what I wanted. It was a pretty good way to get hands-on experience with how envelopes, LFOs, etc work without doing my homework (by the way, here's a very simple subtractive-style VST synth for Windows btw: http://www.blaukraut.info/)

But learning the basic signal path of a synthesizer will save you a lot of time when knob fiddling. All the lingo and acronyms of synths can be intimidating, but it's much easier once you break it down to the basic elements. Most synths are just a thing that generate a sound (oscillators, samples of oscillators, audio, etc), things that shape (aka "'modulate") the sound (filters, envelopes, LFOs), and (not always but usually) things that shape the shaping of the sound.

The last thing might sound confusing, but think of it this way: let's say you have a modulated delay pedal. An LFO (a thing that shapes your generated sound) is changing the pitch of the repeats with a sine wave, so that the pitch goes up and down just like the shape of the sine. But what if we could mess with ("modulate") the sine wave? For example, what if we made the LFO rate go faster the harder we played? We could use key velocity to do that--the harder you press the keys, the faster the LFO goes. That's what shaping the shaping means.

Complex synths will have multiple oscillators, filters, LFOs, and various other modulators like the key velocity I just mentioned. But really it's just several iterations of the same idea. Like how studio mixing boards have a billion knobs, but for the most part it's just the same row of knobs repeated for every single channel. You just have to learn how the one channel works, and now you know how the rest of them work. Same with a lot of synths!

[John]

My bandmate has a Moog Rogue for sale if that bloats your goat

[PanicProne]

Oh wow. What a response. This is EXACTLY why I post these kind of things on here. I always feel I get fun, honest and good replies.
I'll try and answer your answers as best I can. But first, thank you friendship. That is one of the best explanations I've heard and it helped me with the intimidation thing a lot. I actually think I understand things now and even more so, feel confident and inspired to learn more Friendship by name, friendship by nature!

You can get lots of different synths on an iPad, including a number of Moog ones, for less than the price of a Grandmother.

I stated the price being one of the things I didn't like, as it usually is. Some of you have suggested going for a software synth (yes?) as a cheaper solution. Much appreciated. The problem with that is, as stated, I don't get inspired by software, rather the opposite. I like the physical interaction with instruments. Again, I reckon that's why I like pedals so much. They're hands on. Another thing is, I don't own (or feel I need) an iPad. I don't even own a laptop or computer at the moment, and haven't for almost 2 years now (typing this on my gf's laptop, which obviously I can borrow for the lazy surf once in a while but can't really seize to make music on). I'll eventually get one down the line, but haven't missed or felt I needed one since my last broke. Which kinda makes me lean into what you said, Zork.

(A soft synth can get you cool sounds, but it's lacking the physical and emotional sensation and they also tend to be very deep a.k.a. complicated.)

Do you have sounds or styles in mind? How do you want to use it---slow full chords, simple bass lines, mono melodies?
If you just want to get synth sounds, you can always run an inexpensive digital keyboard/piano into a Particle or two. That is a better route for most people than dropping a grand or two on their first synth. A Casio into a gritty filter pedal will sound better than an expensive synth that's been poorly programmed.

I hear what you're saying. I "found" my gf's old casio from when she was a kid when we visited her parents this summer and realised it sounded super nice. I just missed being able to tweak the sound of it a little. That said I do have some cool filter (and lots of other nice) pedals but would rather have something "complete" to start off with, if that makes sense? What I do seem to like about the Grandmother is its sound and look. It just looks fun to me. There's enough knobs and patchpoints (is that the term?) to get me interested but it doesn't feel crowded. Style wise I think some simple bass lines, the odd melody or just really doing (for lack of a better word) drones, but with something a little more "developed"/with more possibilities then the current drone-y pedals I own (Drone thing, Empty glass, SOMMS, Rorschach etc), so yeah, slow full chords in a monphonic sense, I guess? More minimalistic slow ambience and soundscaping than blip-bloppy faster stuff at least. I've thought about and tried minilogues in the past btw but never felt (though good) they've sounded as cool and been a little intimidated by all the "crowded" knobs etc. The more I think of it (as superficial it may sound) the look of the Grandmother really does a lot for me, not getting me stressed out by too much, yet cool looking enough to make me want to play it. And yeah, a friend recommended a Bass Station II a while back but just looking at that I think, that's not the instrument for me. I can't put my finger on it but I just didn't like it.

Like I said, appreciate all the replies so far. Feel free to ask me more questions and keep making this difficult for me :P

[PanicProne]

but for real, maybe some of the smaller options to start with if it's too much of an investment? mother 32 and a keyboard (maybe pricewise that does put you up next to a granny, in that case disregard). Moog minitaur + keys? If you want poly stay away from these ofc. The granny does look and sound swell.

I've always thought the semi-modulars from Moog (M32, DFAM and Subharmonicon) look super nice but at the same time have interpreted them as a little complex(?) and in the end, perhaps a liiiiittle "worse" sounding (subjectively speaking). Minitaur even lower on the list soundwise. Am I wrong about the complexity thing?

[cosmicevan]

This past year, I fell into the semi-modular hole with Moog and have the semi-modular trio and a grandmother. If you don't like learning, don't get one of the semi-modulars. They are not complex, but require learning time. If you do decide to go that route, my favorite is the DFAM. It is the most immediate and easiest to get awesomeness out of it without knowing what you are doing...and I found that it really helped me understand synth concepts in a better way as I started to explore the patching.

The grandmother, however, is the most immediate...and you really can't get a bad sound out of it. While the 2ndary market for them isn't super hot that if you bought a used one and hated it you'd instantly get your money back...it is still viable enough that if you find a used one for a good price you can resell it for the same money or take a small loss to move it quick. Similar story on the semi-modulars...used you can find them at competitive prices...but if you have to sell one, it's less easy, but not impossible.

I'd recommend snagging a used grandmother. I love mine.

[PanicProne]

So about two weeks after starting this thread I dove in and got Grandmother as an early xmas present to myself, sort of, and I absolutely adore it so far. I by no means understand synths in general very well or the GM as a whole yet but I loooove playing it, haven't found a bad sound yet or had a cold-sweat-why-isn't-it-making-a-or-that-sound-moment yet. I've even started automatically visualising some of the sounds I conjure up in terms of waveshapes etc, something I've super not been able to do before, so I'm really really happy with it. It's just amazing and was the perfect fit for me. My girlfriend (who's not into music making but listens to a lot more electronic music than I do) really likes the look of it and even tried it out and felt curious and inspired too. So bonus points there.

Of course it dragged me down the moog hole though and about two weeks ago I scored a used moog sound studio for a little less than what I paid for the grandmother. I initially wanted to start out with just the dfam as a sort of rhythmic pairing to the GM but felt the deal on the studio was too good to pass up on (as I've been intrigued by the subharmonicon for ages ie). This has turned out a lot more complicated than the GM but I still feel it's helping me learn at a quicker pace and has encouraged me to try patching more, which I initially wasn't suuuuper stoked on. Lots of money gone, for sure, but a lot more inspiration and happiness gained. At a point in my life where I don't get to play in bands/rehearse as much as I'd like it's really kept and is keeping me going

That said, I've a few questions.
What long PATCH CABLES do people use? The longest I've got with the GM or studio are around 30cm I think and I'd like longer ones to be able to patch between the GM and studio, while still keeping them sida by side. Any tips?

REVERB - what are you guys using for synths? I pulled my DBA Rooms out the other day but felt it didn't fit at all, getting too dirty too easily and making me realise that even though it's cool, it's time for me to sell it (which I'm gonna do, since I never want to sell anything!). I've a RV-5 and RV-3 but those will go and always have gone towards guitaring, Fuzzrocious Afterlife is for bass and the Unusual EAS is a bit too expermental for what I'm looking for right now, though I'm deffo keeping it. Suggestions? I don't want a strymon.

[Pepe]

Congratulations for having fun with the Grandmother! The BOSS RV-5 in Modulation mode is my go-to reverb for most synthesizer sounds. Buy another one or upgrade your guitar setup with an RV-6 (at least I think it could be better than the opredecessor - I haven't tried one yet).

[Heraclitus Akimbo]

REVERB - what are you guys using for synths?

I like my Mooer A7, also use various patches on the Zoom Multistomp (which is great for use with synths in general + allows you to customize a lot of wacky modulation) + also Zoia (though that, of course, is a whole different kettle of fish).

[echorec]

REVERB - what are you guys using for synths?

For recording purposes, or will you be doing any gigs? There's a huge variety of reverb plugins (free to less than 50 GBP/EU/$).

If you want premium reverbs, think 300 & up. If you just want some color/mass for putting a bed of sound under your synths, then you can grab a Zoom MS-70 for a modest price. An Alexander Space Race might be a decent compromise, if you can source one.

[Disarm D'arcy]

REVERB - what are you guys using for synths? I pulled my DBA Rooms out the other day but felt it didn't fit at all, getting too dirty too easily and making me realise that even though it's cool, it's time for me to sell it (which I'm gonna do, since I never want to sell anything!). I've a RV-5 and RV-3 but those will go and always have gone towards guitaring, Fuzzrocious Afterlife is for bass and the Unusual EAS is a bit too expermental for what I'm looking for right now, though I'm deffo keeping it. Suggestions? I don't want a strymon.

Walrus Audio Descent

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUey2X6-IZc

[cosmicevan]

For your synths, why not use the reverb in the grandmother? It sounds fantastic and it's patchable.