Mastering a record - What about it?

[PanicProne]

So I am closing in on finishing the mix portion (I'm not mixing, we've had a solid guy do it for us) of a project I've been a part of for a long time. And after that, obviously, comes mastering. Having NO earlier experience with or understanding of mastering, what are some things I/we should know when contacting the mastering engineer? Mix as a concept is so much easier to understand, at least in my opinion. But how does one approach their music being mastered? What questions can you ask etc? Help and share experiences, please

[shikawkee]

As someone who masters records for a living among other aspects of the pro audio industry, I'd start with looking into mastering engineers who do the type of music you dig and who's work you admire on other records.

Then, there's the matter of budget, etc. Sometimes the top dogs charge a lot (but are well worth it) but they do indie rates sometimes. Or you might find someone just below that level for a good price. Lots of options.

Whatever you do, please, PLEASE, don't do AI online mastering with entities who advertise a lot. They almost always sound like crap and don't take into account thew subtleties of your music. They will just throw you into a template and make it loud. There's a lot more to it than that. It's an art.

Glad to help if you need more info.

[PanicProne]

Great reply! Thank you! I've given things a lot of though and agree with and have thought about all the things you mention.
I/we do have a list of people we really want to give a shot (and hopefully the budget with it). It's gonna be two records btw, kinda related but hopefully contrasting enough too, so we're looking to have a different masterer for each. I guess what Especially, I think, I'm looking for help on how to compare/tell if a master is good and how to communicate around it. As mentioned above, with a mix (at least to me) it just seems easier to say "a bit more of this guitar", "a bit cleaner here", "more reverb" etc. As I'm finding it hard to understand how mastering works, it makes it more challenging to talk about. Does that make sense? What can you ask for and how? What can the mastering engineer actually tweak? (As far as the mix go, we are SUPER happy with it. So there's that at least.) But yeah, that's where I think I'm/we're looking for the most help.

[goroth]

Very good advice Shikawkee!

I'd say don't be afraid to look overseas. There are only a few mastering engineers in Sweden at the top level and they kinda do everything, and it's pretty expensive and pretty bland. I've mastered stuff with Colin Marston, Alan Douches, Lawrence Mackrory and Magnus Lindberg. The latter two were on advice of the dues mixing and recording our stuff, the former two were because we liked their stuff. I'm not 100% happy with anything we've ever recorded, but the former two were much closer to what I wanted, especially Alan Douches.

Noting albums that you think sound good, and who as mastered them, is probably the best advice (which you've also already been given). Colin Marston has a very particular sound, and I don't think he has like a "standard Colin master" button he presses, he has a way of hearing music. And it doesn't matter what the style is, he hears it in a certain way, and that will influence his master. So at least from my musician perspective I am paying for someone who hears something a certain way, and will bring that approach to my music.

If you are working with a pro dude then it should be fine, but years ago I worked with a recording engineer who put a whole bunch of compression and shit on the bounces we sent to the mastering engineer and he just had no room for doing anything. So make sure you don't goof up like that, make sure there is lots of headroom for the master.

[shikawkee]

Great reply! Thank you! I've given things a lot of though and agree with and have thought about all the things you mention.
I/we do have a list of people we really want to give a shot (and hopefully the budget with it). It's gonna be two records btw, kinda related but hopefully contrasting enough too, so we're looking to have a different masterer for each. I guess what Especially, I think, I'm looking for help on how to compare/tell if a master is good and how to communicate around it. As mentioned above, with a mix (at least to me) it just seems easier to say "a bit more of this guitar", "a bit cleaner here", "more reverb" etc. As I'm finding it hard to understand how mastering works, it makes it more challenging to talk about. Does that make sense? What can you ask for and how? What can the mastering engineer actually tweak? (As far as the mix go, we are SUPER happy with it. So there's that at least.) But yeah, that's where I think I'm/we're looking for the most help.

You can ask for whatever you want! It's your money and your music.

A very, VERY important thing to note is something my mentor, Motown legend Bob Olhsson, taught me: do no harm. That should be the first key for any mastering engineer.

Also, it would be good to work with someone who could give you feedback after they've started working on your stuff so you can tweak it to make it better based on their experience. Bob does this all the time (as do I). The most important thing is making your music as great as it can be. If a mastering engineer allows you to tweak your mix based on what they are hearing and have it sent back to them, that's the best situation IMO. And also find out how many revisions you get for their price. You don't want to drive them mad but a few revisions are reasonable.

Bob still does work (I'm booked pretty solid right now) so maybe reach out to him? olh@hyperback.com Tell him Ed sent you. Nobody is better than Bob anyway.

[PanicProne]

Guys, I don't know if this is cause I'm a little tired and listening to the new Waxahatchee while reading/typing, but those replies are so nice. Almost a little touching coming back/sticking around at ILF and STILL after all these years, I'm reminded why I liked it here in the first place. Thank you so much

Goroth, suprprisingly (or maybe not so much) Alan Douches and Magnus Lindberg are two out of a handful of people we have thought of. Magnus mainly cause he's located in Sthlm, has done stuff for friends that turned out good and we'd actually be able to physically meet up with him. However, silly reason no to go with him is the fact that he seems to do EVERY swedish metal-y band and we were originally so influenced by Cult Of Luna it'd almost feel like ripping his own music off and have him help us do it, if that makes sense? Obviously if it turns out good, that doesn't matter, but it'd be giving away a bit more of our "own" identity, if you know what I mean? So I've been keen to try someone else first. Ie, Mr Douches. I (at least think I) loooooved what he did with Thrice's "Horizons/west"-record and then realised he's done a lot of stuff I've liked over the years, not knowing it was him. Was communication smooth with him when you worked together? He's my first pick to do one of the records, so hoping it works out.

Shikawkee, thanks so much for the suggestion and valuble points. I'm (sorry) not familiar with Ohlsson but will keep that in mind!

And yes, we've recorded and mixed with a dude who does this for a living and we've worked with before (when he was still in training) and feel super comfortable with him. We asked if he had any suggestions for mastering engineer, but since our music isn't what he typically does, he didn't have any straight forward suggestions/favourite candidates. I'm pretty sure he'll be able to help out and give his opinions on the master though.

[shikawkee]

Guys, I don't know if this is cause I'm a little tired and listening to the new Waxahatchee while reading/typing, but those replies are so nice. Almost a little touching coming back/sticking around at ILF and STILL after all these years, I'm reminded why I liked it here in the first place. Thank you so much

Goroth, suprprisingly (or maybe not so much) Alan Douches and Magnus Lindberg are two out of a handful of people we have thought of. Magnus mainly cause he's located in Sthlm, has done stuff for friends that turned out good and we'd actually be able to physically meet up with him. However, silly reason no to go with him is the fact that he seems to do EVERY swedish metal-y band and we were originally so influenced by Cult Of Luna it'd almost feel like ripping his own music off and have him help us do it, if that makes sense? Obviously if it turns out good, that doesn't matter, but it'd be giving away a bit more of our "own" identity, if you know what I mean? So I've been keen to try someone else first. Ie, Mr Douches. I (at least think I) loooooved what he did with Thrice's "Horizons/west"-record and then realised he's done a lot of stuff I've liked over the years, not knowing it was him. Was communication smooth with him when you worked together? He's my first pick to do one of the records, so hoping it works out.

Shikawkee, thanks so much for the suggestion and valuble points. I'm (sorry) not familiar with Ohlsson but will keep that in mind!

And yes, we've recorded and mixed with a dude who does this for a living and we've worked with before (when he was still in training) and feel super comfortable with him. We asked if he had any suggestions for mastering engineer, but since our music isn't what he typically does, he didn't have any straight forward suggestions/favourite candidates. I'm pretty sure he'll be able to help out and give his opinions on the master though.

You're quite welcome. There are a coupla' guys in Norway I could recommend if you like. (I'm Norwegian so...) BTW-Bob spells his last name differently than most Swedes on purpose. It's Olh not Ohl.
PS-If you want to be there in person that's fine but it's really not necessary these days. Decisions can be made all around very quickly thanks to the web/cloud.

[Heraclitus Akimbo]

This was/is a zone of mystery to me, but a little while back, I actually had a release that I wanted to treat more seriously than I normally do, so I asked around and found someone to master my album.

As mentioned above, asking around/finding someone who gets the sonic world you're working in is huge, because at the end of the day, you're paying for sympathetic ears.

To me, the biggest thing was taking all the completed pieces and doing those subtle things that make them sound like "an album" and I feel like what I got back did that.

[Heraclitus Akimbo]

While it's on my mind here, and while Ed is checking in on this thread...

How do you (and others here) feel about the shift away from the term "master"/mastering itself? (Because of... associations and just the implication of bad power relations in general.)

A friend who did some work on another project I was involved with has rejected the term and prefers "principal mix". Personally, I get the idea and support it, though I'm finding the term hard to quit, since it evokes something so specific to me (and, say, "principal mix" sounds less specific? But maybe 'cause I'm just not used to it? Or because it sounds conceptually too close to actually mixing tracks, which is a whole other specific thing?)

[shikawkee]

While it's on my mind here, and while Ed is checking in on this thread...

How do you (and others here) feel about the shift away from the term "master"/mastering itself? (Because of... associations and just the implication of bad power relations in general.)

A friend who did some work on another project I was involved with has rejected the term and prefers "principal mix". Personally, I get the idea and support it, though I'm finding the term hard to quit, since it evokes something so specific to me (and, say, "principal mix" sounds less specific? But maybe 'cause I'm just not used to it? Or because it sounds conceptually too close to actually mixing tracks, which is a whole other specific thing?)

I have yet to hear the term "principal mix" in my world, but the best part of hiring a mastering engineer is getting another set of well-trained, objective ears. I think it's crucial and no self-respecting great, successful artist would go without it. The really good mastering guys and gals are super-duper trained and extremely skilled at listening to every little detail. Plus, the best usually know everything about formats, delivery systems, restoration (when necessary), etc. and the market/competition your music lives in. To me, it's very well worth it and should add anywhere to 15% better (for a great recorded and mixed record) to 50% better. Is that worth the fee?

That's why I shudder at AI or online cheap mastering firms. They never, ever get any of the subtleties NOR give you feedback on your work so you can make it better before the next revision.

YMMV.

[Chankgeez]

Great thread! Both the question and the answers.

[goroth]

the best part of hiring a mastering engineer is getting another set of well-trained, objective ears. I think it's crucial and no self-respecting great, successful artist would go without it. The really good mastering guys and gals are super-duper trained and extremely skilled at listening to every little detail. Plus, the best usually know everything about formats, delivery systems, restoration (when necessary), etc. and the market/competition your music lives in. To me, it's very well worth it and should add anywhere to 15% better (for a great recorded and mixed record) to 50% better. Is that worth the fee?

This is the best take right here.

Regarding communication: with Alan it was the drummer communicating with him. It turned out awfully good so idk! And with Magnus it was our mixing engineer who communicated with him.

Out of the albums I've taken charge of communicating with both Colin and Lawrence was good, but in the end I didn't quite get what I wanted because we heard the music differently and I ended up at "near enough is good enough".

https://open.spotify.com/album/1yXki84W ... 07f534Lt0g

That was mastered (and mixed) by Colin and I like that it breathes a lot and the bass has a lot of space. I still don't think there was enough treble, and that was one of the points we went back and forth on, and he basically refused to raise the treble any higher. Which I'm not upset about - like we were saying you are paying for someone else's expert ears. But I still find the master a bit dull.

https://open.spotify.com/album/5Jk5kxzM ... YlIFWI-Efw

This was mastered by Lawrence (mixed by Daniel Bergstrand). I think it is slightly too compressed, and the mids are too boxy. It fucking smashes, but after a while I get tired of listening to it. I think describing the master as "boxy" was not appreciated

I think the mix was rushed because Danne is used to recording Behemoth, Pain of Salvation, Meshuggah and those sorts of bands. We are not one of those bands and there is stuff that I really miss that I think are the fault of the mixing, but could perhaps have been alleviated in the master.

In the end I'm proud of all the music we've put out and have learned incredible amounts about what I want and how to get it and how to communicate about it.

[PanicProne]

Had a zoom call with Alan Douches last night and what a nice guy and absolute professional. Really excited to have him work on (half) our stuff and see where it takes us. Even if the master doesn't turn out to our liking, this first interaction has really left a good impression.

[dubkitty]

i lean towards shoegaze, but that might not matter. Mark Gardener out of Ride has a whole second career as a mastering engineer, and does a LOT of indie stuff out of the UK and points afield. given the sheer volume of stuff he does i have to figure his rates are reasonable, and he seems like a mensch. given the variety of sounds Ride have used over the years he's probably capable beyond his chosen/assigned genre.

[shikawkee]

I'll tell you what, if you really wanna' see what's possible in mastering, everything that could be done vs. should be done, somebody send me a track and I'll film the entire mastering session.
For free. One song. And I'll put it up on my YouTube page. I'll journal the whole process up to what I feel is the right approach for the final product. It could be illuminating.