Sm57 with Balance

[Plastic_Telos]

Hi all. Ive started recording solo more and I havent been able to get a guitar sound that I like. I'm playing a strat with an sd phat cat into an sm57 >propellerhead Balance interface > ableton live.

One thing I wonder. The Balance has a max of 40db preamp gain and I cant get the dial nearly that high on the Balance with out digital clipping. I've heard that the an sm57 likes to see 50db gain.

I'm playing the strat into an ac4 set fairly clean and fat (treble all the way down, not going for super jangly) Sometimes ill use a cs-3 compressor or disaster transport delay to fatten up the tone. I always aim for between -18db and -12db hitting ableton. I've played with Mic placement quite a bit and have definitely gotten some useable tones, but it always ends up sounding a whole lot thinner and...flatter? Then what I hear at that same position in the room with my own ears.

With that understood and the advice I've already gotten, I'd like to rephrase my question: Is this thin-ness characteristic of an sm57 recording at lower levels? Would it help, as a few have suggested, to have decent preamp with a line output so i could boost the mic input at the preamp and then send the signal to my audio interface where i could pad the level down to -18db or so when it hits my computer.

Alternatively, should I look at a different mic for low volume recording.

OR Are there any suggestions for Mic technique for low volume recording with an sm57?

I hope that was clear-ish. Thanks again you guys!

[The4455]

It depends on the level your getting in ableton. You don't want to have the gian on your pre turned all the way up if that's what you think. If you don't like the sound a nicer mic is one option, for recording you can really hear a shitty cable, so a nicer cable would help as well. Part of it could be the level your hitting the mic with, turning up your amp and lowering the gain on your pre is key in recording. Considering a 57 can take over 100db before distortion you can and should turn your amp up before cranking up the pre. Another thing to think about is the sample rate you're recording at and the quality of your interface.

[The4455]

It depends on the level your getting in ableton. You don't want to have the gian on your pre turned all the way up if that's what you think. If you don't like the sound a nicer mic is one option, for recording you can really hear a shitty cable, so a nicer cable would help as well. Part of it could be the level your hitting the mic with, turning up your amp and lowering the gain on your pre is key in recording. Considering a 57 can take over 100db before distortion you can and should turn your amp up before cranking up the pre. Another thing to think about is the sample rate you're recording at and the quality of your interface.

I would set your pre amp gain to noon and then get the rest of your level from your amp. I intern at a recording studio and we crank 100 watt amps all day.

[MaggotBrainNY]

double post. sorry.

[MaggotBrainNY]

Hi all. Ive started recording solo more and I havent been able to get a guitar sound that I like. I'm playing a strat with an sd phat cat into an sm57 >propellerhead Balance interface > ableton live.

One thing I wonder. The Balance has a max of 40db preamp gain and I cant get the dial nearly that high on the Balance with out digital clipping. I've heard that the an sm57 likes to see 50db gain.

Do I need need to get an external preamp? Or should I try some sort of condenser?

What amp are you using? Pedals? Gain staging here is important.

In regards to hearing that a 57 "likes to see 50db of gain"... that is of no concern whatsoever. That just sounds like internet forum jargon honestly. I'm not calling you out on that... I used to read into statements like that when I was new to this stuff. Just don't worry about that, at all. Set your amp to the volume where you find that happy medium between getting the tone and clean/distortion ratio you want, the way it interacts with the cabinet or speaker in a way that sounds best, and that is comfortable for the environment you are tracking in. THEN, set the gain on your preamp to a level that makes sense in Ableton. If you're playing super loud, maybe your mic pre needs to be padded so you're not overloading the circuit. Some preamps are more forgiving than others in that regard, while some will severely bottleneck your tone when pushed too hard. Usually the latter occurs with less expensive digital interfaces. I know nothing about the one you're using, so I won't be presumptuous.

With digital recording, you're not working with any kind of noise floor, so you don't have to record "as hot as possible while staying below clipping" (back to the 50db thing). Another internet myth. It's best to stay in the yellow, or below. Especially if you're planning on ending up with a session that has a lot of tracks. The accumulative effects of recording with modest levels when it comes time to mix down to your stereo master fader is so much more pleasant and easy to work with than if you record 16 tracks at hot levels. You don't need to use all the bits or anything like that. Trust me. I recorded hot for years because I was told that that is what you are supposed to do, but after reading about recording at more moderate levels in the digital realm (from a serious heavy hitter engineer), my recordings/mixes have gotten significantly better.

A 57 is probably the most used mic in the history of recording electric guitars, so I would wager that if you are not getting an at least useable sound from your rig with one, the problem is probably not the microphone. There are most definitely better microphones (also much worse microphones), but none of them will be a magic bullet and I'm of the opinion that it is best to learn and get confident with the equipment you have at your disposal before spending money on more stuff with the hopes of solving a problem. 57s are not exceptional in any way, but they are capable in the right hands. Just use your ears. I've recorded a shitload of guitar with 57s. They are not always my 1st choice, but if it is all I have to work with, I don't complain.

Sometimes (in my case many times over as well) the tone you think is so great when you're playing at home, is not ideal in a recording environment. Beyond that, nothing will reveal the flaws in your sound like pushing a microphone right up against the speaker cabinet and hearing it through a good set of monitors. It is important not to be dogmatic about your sound. You might just be realizing that it's not as awesome as you think because you are hearing it from a 3rd party perspective.

Experimenting with microphone placement is key. No rules for this. Try different angles, distances, micing different parts of the speaker... you can change so much about the sound you are capturing with the tiniest adjustments.

I can't back the get-a-new-cable angle. I have this argument now and then... but I just think it is nonsense. There has never been a time in 14 years of recording that I thought "man, this doesn't sound good, I should use a better XLR cable." Never. If it's not broken in some way, then it's fine.

Just keep experimenting. You'll get there. That's all you can really do. Is just keep trying new shit, and take mental notes when something works for the next time.

[The4455]

I think what you meant to say was when recording digitaly there is no headroom there is always noise floor.

[MaggotBrainNY]

I think what you meant to say was when recording digitaly there is no headroom there is always noise floor.

No, that is not what I meant to say at all. I'm not even sure what you mean exactly.

[John]

MaggotBrainNY knows of what he speaks. Heed him.

The only thing I would add is that I don't have much love for the preamps on typical A/D interfaces. You can't warm up the input gain without clipping on most of these things. I would get something like an RNP or one of those EHX tube pre's. The RNP doesn't have an output level control but if you're recording mono you can just run one channel into the other and use the second channel for output leveling.

[MaggotBrainNY]

MaggotBrainNY knows of what he speaks. Heed him.

The only thing I would add is that I don't have much love for the preamps on typical A/D interfaces. You can't warm up the input gain without clipping on most of these things. I would get something like an RNP or one of those EHX tube pre's. The RNP doesn't have an output level control but if you're recording mono you can just run one channel into the other and use the second channel for output leveling.

Those EHX pres actually sound pretty rad. The 12AY7 was the first outboard pre I ever bought. The build quality leaves a bit to be desired, mostly in regards to the way the power supply hooks up to the box, but they do sound nice, especially at that price. It would be awesome to get a pair and figure out a way to rack them up with a power supply that doesn't require that wall wart.

I found mine to have a pretty good amount of self noise, but if I'm recording anything remotely loud it's never a problem. Even with quiet stuff, it just sounds like tape hiss, so if you're into that sort of thing, it's whatever. Saturates in a cool way too. Also, you can so easily swap out the 12AY7 for any of the 12A_7 tube varieties to change things up a bit tonally. Fun stuff. Man, I haven't used mine in a while actually. I gotta bust that bastard out soon. Good call.

The Groove Tubes Brick is another very affordable and good sounding tube preamp. Built like a fucking tank too.

I'd reckon that if you're looking to be able to hit your input stage harder and get a more forgiving and pleasing result, the RNP would be less ideal, but I that is based on internet research exclusively. Never used one myself. That company has a great reputation though. I had the RNLA compressor for a while and thought it was cool.

[John]

Yeah the EHX can be a noisy bugger, but if the OP is looking to run something hot and dirty then I think it wouldn't be a problem. I wouldn't use the RNP to actually add distortion, but it has a lot of headroom for cleanliness. You barely need to turn it up. I have one and the only complaint is the lack of output level control, but like I said for mono use you can go Ch1 hot, ch2 cool.

Really, any preamp that can drive the signal and also keep it at a level that won't clip the A/D box will work.

[Plastic_Telos]

Thanks for all the responses guys - particularly maggot. I don't know why I went looking for information anywhere else. To clarify a few things:

I'm playing the strat into an ac4 set fairly clean and fat (treble all the way down, not going for super jangly) Sometimes ill use a cs-3 compressor or disaster transport delay to fatten up the tone. I always aim for between -18db and -12db hitting ableton. I've played with Mic placement quite a bit and have definitely gotten some useable tones, but it always ends up sounding a whole lot thinner and...flatter? Then what I hear at that same position in the room with my own ears.

With that understood and the advice I've already gotten, I'd like to rephrase my question: Is this thin-ness characteristic of an sm57 recording at lower levels? Would it help, as a few have suggested, to have decent preamp with a line output so i could boost the mic input at the preamp and then send the signal to my audio interface where i could pad the level down to -18db or so when it hits my computer.

Alternatively, should I look at something a little more sensitive like a condenser?

OR Are there any suggestions for Mic technique for low volume recording with an sm57

I hope that was clear-ish. Thanks again you guys!

[KaosCill8r]

Another good option for micing an amp with good results is using a ribbon mic. They have made a bit of a comeback in the last few years. There are some good affordable ribbon mics out there if you are prepared to hunt around.

[John]

Another good option for micing an amp with good results is using a ribbon mic. They have made a bit of a comeback in the last few years. There are some good affordable ribbon mics out there if you are prepared to hunt around.

Agreed. They are also good for high SPLs which doesn't seem to be what he's dealing with, but yeah they be good.

I've played with Mic placement quite a bit and have definitely gotten some useable tones, but it always ends up sounding a whole lot thinner and...flatter? Then what I hear at that same position in the room with my own ears.

With that understood and the advice I've already gotten, I'd like to rephrase my question: Is this thin-ness characteristic of an sm57 recording at lower levels?

Possibly. An SM57 doesn't have a huge bass response, and can distort if you hit it with loud bass frequencies, but if you're not slamming it with SPLs then it ought to reproduce what you're doing to a somewhat recognizable degree. However there's a limit to what to realistically expect.

Alternatively, should I look at something a little more sensitive like a condenser?

Absolutely. Or try a kick mic like the Beta 52 or AKG d112, or a more versatile dynamic like the RE 320 or Shure SM7.

Another thing: The Propellerhead Balance has 2 inputs right? Track with the 57 close and a condenser farther away, or with 2 mics in an x/y or Mid/Side configuration. Or put one 57 on the cone and another further out towards the rim. You might have phasing issues* but they can be worked out. Low frequency sound waves are physically longer than high freqs, and thus need a bigger sonic "net" to catch them. Just a 57 means you get the little ghosts like Slimer, but the Stay Puft gets away.

*Another suggestion: Audio-Technica ATM 250DE is a dual diaphragm mic with both a condenser and a dynamic, in perfect phase alignment. It's designed for kick but I've solved a lot of problems with it on various sound sources. Really like it for vocals too.

[KaosCill8r]

The 57 can get a little treble roll off if you turn the mic off axis slightly. Try pointing it straight at the cone of the speaker in the middle. Then with headphones on, listen as you slowly start rotating the mic off axis. You will hear the amount of treble start to fade off and hear more bass response. Turn up your amp volume slightly to compensate for any drop in punch. But yeah also adding a kick mic too will give you more bottom end response.

[MaggotBrainNY]

Getting enough low end from a 57 hasn't been an issue for me historically. Usually I end up backing the mic off a bit so that there isn't too much low end from the proximity effect. If you want more low end get right up on the speaker... I reckon you have already tried that though.

I do find that amps get the best bass response when you find the sweet spot with the speaker and volume level. I'm not a fan of recording amps quietly. You should be able to hear the spot on the master volume where the speaker starts to rumble and push the low mids in a cool way. I'll say too, that my issue with tiny low watt amps like that is usually that the lack the low mids of something heftier.

You could also try recording with the amp in a corner. Low frequencies build up in the corners of rooms, so you could take advantage of that and see if it helps. Experiment with recording with the amp on the floor or elevated on something. See if that makes a difference. Different surfaces too... hardwood floor vs. a rug (man), etc.

In another thread I mentioned a mod for the 57 where you remove the transformer completely. It gives it a pretty significant bass boost. The trade off (if you would even call it that) is you lower the output by 10db give-or-take.

I do think that some preamps exhibit a different frequency response based on where you are with the input gain. Some sound better pushed, others def. do not. Again though, I don't think that that is the first course of action to take... buying a fancier preamp. BUT, you know, buying gear is fun and trying new things is fun, so I certainly wouldn't give you shit for it.

I prefer my Beyer M160 ribbon mic to basically any other mic I've used for electric guitar. You will most def. get a heftier low/low mid response from a ribbon mic than a 57. Shinybox is a cool small company that makes very nice sounding ribbon mics at a very affordable price. The Beyer is tits though. Seriously. Just more expensive. I've never really been wowed by condensers on guitar cabs. Lots of folks obviously love them for that though. Never used a kick drum mic on a cab. Could be cool. They're generally a bit scooped in the mids though, so you would maybe want to supplement it with something else to fill those gaps in.